ximen | a story about Wei

a story about Wei

Short story, because it's finals week. There's also a note about titles at the end that's twice as long as the story. Sorry about that. I like this story because it reminds me of my friend Emily.

important stuff:
-Lord Wen: ruler of Wei and generally awesome guy. He's in the next three stories after this, too. Also, see the note about his title.
-Wei: a warring state

Lord Wen had an appointment to go hunting with his forester. On this day, he was drinking wine and enjoying himself, and it was raining. Lord Wen was about to go outside when his advisers said, "Today we are drinking and enjoying ourselves, and besides, it's raining. Why is the lord about to go out?" Lord Wen said, "I have an appointment to go hunting with my forester. Even though I am enjoying myself, could I really not keep my appointment for even a moment?" He then went to cancel the appointment in person. It was in this way that Wei began to grow strong.

notes on titles: Lord Wei is called "Wen Hou" or "Wei Wen Hou" in Chinese. The "Hou" is his title and doesn't have a great English translation. Most people translate it as Marquis, but since I don't actually know European royalty ranks, that wouldn't be helpful to me. Ranks during the warring states are confusing anyway. The ruler of one state will be called a "Wang" (king), while another is called "Gong" (duke). But they both rule states. And someone may be addressed as Wang, and referred to as Jun (lord).The rulers of Wei, Zhao, and Han are called "Hou" for historical reasons, but they rule fairly important states, and they don't have a king they owe fealty to. So they're not interchangeable with European royalty.

My inclination is to translate "Wang" as "king," since they're pretty approximate, and to replace any other title used to describe the ruler of a state with "lord." It's not ideal, because it won't convey the complexities of the different titles, but for those of us who haven't studied ancient Chinese history, those complexities will probably be lost anyway. But I'm open to suggestions. Would people rather see the untranslated titles? Would you rather I use the standard translations (king, duke, marquis)? Should I use my professor's made-up alternate translations ("commonlord" for "gong", "marklord" for "hou")? Does someone have a brilliant suggestion that solves the whole problem?

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I love this story. This is exactly why I was surprised at Chu's behavior a few stories back. Even apart from moral concerns about what one ought to do, it's often in your interest to be seen as a trustworthy ally and almost never in your interest to be seen as deceitful. As a rule, betrayal works once and then never again. In any case this story has put me on Wei's side. :) By the way, is this the same Wei from the Three Kingdoms period that Cao Cao would come to lead?

I don't know a thing about the formal hierarchical positions of the leaders of the warring states, but if Wen Hou is at the top of Wei's totem pole it seems appropriate to call him Lord Wen. Marquis Wen seems like a poor translation because it implies that someone outranks him, since marquises came after dukes and kings in the ranks of European nobility -- unless the word "marquis" is related to his status in some other way that "lord" or "king" doesn't capture. To me the word "king" implies that the order of succession is fairly clearly defined, with his title generally passing to his eldest son when he dies, but I don't think that's how the word is always used even in English, so it's at your discretion :)

Yeah, I hate the whole marquis thing, so lord is much better. Duke and Marquis all sound like they serve someone more directly.

But what a cute story! :D

I know! It almost makes up for the story about 樂羊 and his son that's coming up.

Historically, I don't think there's actually anything wrong with using terms like Duke and Marquis, since in Europe, for various reasons, such people were the heads of independent states (e.g. Duke of Normandy) and sometimes more powerful than Kings. I suspect that, much like in China, the titles had more to do with history than actual position in a political structure.

On the other hand, modern day people don't think of it that way, and envision some kind of centralized system and hierarchy, so maybe avoiding those kind of titles is best. And if it's not meaningful to you, then skip it

Lord, to me, evokes the image of a courtier or ruler of a city, not the ruler of a state. Lord is also kind of a general honorific, and doesn't convey rulership to me. If you're going to use one English word across the board for heads of state, I'd use King or Sovereign. But I'll read them and enjoy them whichever you pick.

Lord certainly is general, but that's exactly why it can be made to apply here. It's not a formal title of nobility like duke or marquis; it's a form of address. Someone called lord has some kind of power over some land and/or people. Lord Wen is fine but ambiguous; the notes need to establish that he is Wei's sovereign and not some kind of local lord. King Wen would be less ambiguous in this way but could be too specific; it might convey a false impression about rules of succession or the nature or extent of his power. "Sovereign Wen" is sadly not how we use that word in English. :-/

I was going to suggest Premier, but Wikipedia suggests that that title is usually reserved for heads of government who are not also heads of state. How about President? There's ample precedent (hah) in modern times for all kinds of heads of government and state calling themselves presidents, from Idi Amin to Barack Obama; the more unsavory ones by modern standards have dictatorlike powers and serve life terms. "President Wen" makes me giggle, but it's accurate and definitely denotes the man in charge, not just a local ruler.

You'd already expressed your preference for "Lord" above, so I'm a little confused about why you're repeating yourself here. Are you trying to prompt me to explain myself better?

If you're trying to say that there are problems with any option, well, yes, that's obvious.

Lord sounds natural, but doesn't carry the semantic notion of "head of state." It can be used generally, but is actually a formal title of nobility in the UK, and never means the head of state in that context.
King explicitly has that meaning, but may have other connotations to some readers.
"President" means head of state, but also is explicitly modern/Westernized and implicitly democratic (Not all presidents are democratic, and not all Dukes serve kings, but many people may jump to those conclusions). But if the translator wants people to think about the stories in the context of modern life, it might be a good choice.

If you're saying that "Sovereign Wen" sounds a little awkward or exotic, it does, but it carries all the meaning you want with none of the meaning you don't. It's been used in translations and English fantasy literature precisely because speakers of English might think it sounds a little odd, but will immediately know what it means in the context of the story.

Kitts just asked for suggestions, so I was trying to provide some. Ultimately, which is best depends on what aspect of the title is deemed most important by the translator.

Edit: if you want actual forms of address, Your/His Highness/Grace/Majesty is a good option, but sounds weird when the bearer of the title isn't actually being addressed. So you could alternate bteween those forms and something else if you wanted, too.

Edited 2009-03-16 18:28 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing or confrontational! I was just trying to explain why I think Lord is acceptable in a way that addresses your complaint. Maybe I shouldn't have.

It's okay, Brian. I thought your comment was interesting. I wanted a discussion about translations, so I appreciate both of you sharing your thoughts.

Hee... "President Wen of Wei had an appointment with his forester..." While a good suggestion, it doesn't pass the giggle test. And yeah, the ambiguity is the biggest downside to lord-- it doesn't convey any of the specific information that the original title carries (these titles also had ritual significance originally). The biggest downside is that you lose the historical significance of why the ruler of Wei is a Hou, but the ruler of Chu is a Wang. On the other hand, "Lord", unlike Marquess/Marquis, conveys less of the specific connotations that someone trained in European history would have. And when it comes down to it, I'm sort of sick of reading things where people who are trained in European history bring their set of assumptions into Chinese history, and then do bad research based on bad assumptions, and don't feel any need to justify it, except to say "well, this is the way Europe does it." So I'm going to tend to come down on the side of not encouraging more assumptions, even if it leads to vagueness. I could always make the notes more complex, though I worry that if I do that, they'll become longer than the stories!

Duke has some implication that they could be the head of state, but Marquess, regardless of actual history, doesn't carry those connotations to me. The problem they have is that they do suggest that these positions were analogous to European feudal rulers, when they weren't necessarily-- "gong" and "hou" and whatnot also had ritual significance. And I do actually want there to be some differentiation between a Wang and anyone else, since claiming the title of Wang had some importance for a state. "Sovereign" isn't a bad suggestion, though. It comes down to finding a balance between sounding natural and trying to convey a sense of the exotic.

I like how many of the stories are about human nature and basically, human resources. Treat the people below you with respect, and they'll stick with you. Treat them like crap, and suddenly work isn't getting done and things go to hell.

It's about building trust and solid working relationships so that when you gotta push hard people are right there with you.

And yeah, Lord seems the best, though I've also generally been fine with "King" since it's also been applied to Greek city-states as well.

Clearly we need to give some of these stories to your director.

Yeah, well, he keeps reading the "A Good Emperor Leaves EVERYTHING ALONE and things work out fine!" without, you know, contexting the fact that as far as an empire is concerned, everyone generally does a good job of taking care of themselves out of self interest and collecting taxes isn't that hard.

Whereas, a business doesn't get free money just for existing.

Actually, my Qing dynasty history class this quarter was all about how the active emperors that did things (personally appointing governors and such) were the better ones. So even an empire can use some hands-on.

I think you're on the right track with "marklord," and those others.

Retains the distinction between different titles without European baggage.

But it's not poetic enough as is.

yeah... he translates "gong" as "commonlord" because that character (公) also means "public," and "hou" as "marklord" because that character also refers to a target for archery. f you think of a better way to translate the terms, I'd be interested in hearing it.

He also uses coinarch for 公.

This is too modern, but given that these titles are descended from military ranks, you could call them with modern equivalents:
Generalissimo for 公
Colonel for 侯

yrs--
--Ben

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a story about Wei

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I just had an idea!